zz.My thoughts on Scaruffi's top 25

An interesting idea for a list, a critique of Scaruffi's criticism. No offense to others who do not agree fully with Scaruffi but they tend to be all of the same Beatles worshiping kind (don't get me wrong I like to listen to some Beatles stuff now and then but not often and I don't think they're the best band of all time. I think Scaruffi is overly dismissive of their influence on other artists though) so I am intrigued by this review, especially seeing as you like many of the artists he does but don't necessarily agree about which is their greatest work. Is this true for any other artists on this list other than Faust, Neu! and Schulze? I have only heard the albums by them on this list so I cannot give an opinion as to whether I agree or not. Which is your favourite Can album? This seems to be much more closely matched by Scaruffists between Tago Mago and Future Days. I'm not sure which of the two I like more actually.

I only have numbers 1,2,3, Venus In Furs from 4,13,17 and 18 so I cannot say I wholly agree or disagree with all his choices. His opinion is valued by me considering Faust and Rock Bottom would both be in my top 5 albums. Also I have to disagree with you about Alifib/Alifie I absolutely adore that song but Sea Song and Little Red Riding Hood Hit The Road are also very good.

The core of my music collection is in electronic music and this is an area which I think Scaruffi is a little hazy on. Granted he has probably got a greater grasp than most all round critics do on it but I tend to find the only good critics of electronic music are those who are solely focused on that side. It would be interesting to see his opinion on artists such as Ricardo Villalobos or Oliver Lieb (yes I know he mentions him briefly in his history of rock music but it does not seem that he has actually given many listens to his material despite speaking what seems to be fairly highly of his work).

Again slightly veering off topic here but being a Pink Floyd fan, especially of their earlier work, I'm interested to know what the Scaruffists think of Ummagumma as I noticed that it was in Scaruffi's top 10 at one point according to a post by Lukeprog. Obviously Scaruffi has changed his opinion as he now calls it a failed attempt at the avant-garde. I myself have not yet got the album. Just wondering if anyone might explain why he may have changed his mind on this one.

Interesting list. I'll probably share my thoughts on some of these soon but for now I just want to say that The River by Springsteen is his actual choice for #25. There is an expanded version of his list that features this correction, which you can find a link to on his site just above the list you've posted here. It also shows his next 20 or so 9/10 selections from #25 on down.

My thoughts on your thoughts on Scaruffi's top 25:

That said, the albums he recommends are often very difficult and generally don't take things into consideration like rhythm, or melody, or whatever else makes a good pop song into consideration.

I dont think it's wise to listen to these sorts of albums hoping to hear good pop songs. As he says in his letters page, he prefers the original and the unique (or 'difficult') over pop songs that are nearly indistinguishable from what's been done a thousand times before. Hearing music like this is usually a huge shock to the system to someone who is used to listening to straightforward classic rock or pop.

you'll never be able to convince me that "Sentimental Journey" is anything but a bunch of random noisemaking - anyone care to explain?

inappropriate expectations ..? (see above)

In order to be considered a knowledgable person around here, you should probably know all 25.

if you're going to post your thoughts on 25 albums, you should know most of them, i think.

Red Crayola - Parable Of Arable Land. Seems like something I'd like.

Doubtful. Most of it is obnoxious noise, to use your words. Much, much noisier than VU & Nico

I think the key missing ingredient for many of these is that Scaruffi (including myself and other so-called "Scaruffists") has different ideals for music than you do. You complain that there isn't enough pop on his list but don't seem to understand that he looks for what's emotional, not what's catchy. Now don't get me wrong, neither ideal is more correct than the other. Your ideals are just as "correct" as mine or Scaruffi's. You're simply committing musical suicide by going in with expectations that will not work for these albums in almost every case--you're setting yourself up for failure.

#1: Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica. Some would certainly call this a brave choice. It's not really, since you can dismiss anyone who doesn't like it as just not understanding it. Now, I really did love this album when I first heard it. It was unique, bizarre, evocative, and there was even some damn fine songs there. Nowadays, I find myself skipping it whenever I hit the 'shuffle' button. Still, there's a few songs I do really like "Pachuco Cadaver" that I really do enjoy every time I hear them. If there's anything that I really do get out of this album, it's how the Captain and his Magic Band completely twisted the 'normal' guidelines a song should follow, including everything from a sense of normal rhythm to playing in existing time signatures. Nearly everything about it is unique. This isn't for everyone, and is really one of the hardest albums to 'judge', but nobody should really be disappointed with it, since nobody would ever buy this album without reading some kind of review stating just what the album is. Hard to disagree with someone putting this at #1.

Again, one thing that I don't think anyone could deny is that the album is extremely emotional, gushing outwards and overboards in every which direction. If you simply listened to it with that fundamental in mind you'd likely grow to like it significantly more than you do right now.

#2: Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom. This is a really good album. I really don't get all the fuss over "Alifib"/"Alifie" on side two, but I think side one is brilliant, especially "Little Red Riding Hood Hit the Road". There's a very surreal tone through this whole album. It's kind of like watching a Kubrick movie - it seems to follow its own rules, leaving standard conventions behind, but it's oddly effecting and real. This is certainly an artist whose work I'm going to look further into in the future.

Good to see that you find the first side masterful. It is indeed. The key to the second side is the mixture of emotions, the combination of affection, happiness, grief, sorrow, mystery, dream, nightmare, clarity and insanity is one of the most astounding musical brews ever concocted--perhaps the greatest second side in history.

#3: Faust - Faust. I've explained my position on this on the Faust page. I think it's a good album that's strangely moving in parts, with enough musical parts to prevent it from becoming something like, say, Lumpy Gravy. But it would be hard to convince me that it's brilliant, simply because it seems to just through too much at the wall and doesn't show that this newly-assembled band had any concept of self-censorship. That said, it has grown on me since I first heard it. I'd put it at three stars then (about 2 1/2 years ago), maybe three and a half last year, and now it's at four. Maybe the trend will continue?

Try it out on a powerful system if you haven't already. Set it to a volume level that is very high but not so high as to hurt your ears. The opening of track one is the perfect test for where it should be as it is the most ear-piercing portion of the entire album. The first step I've seen most take towards finding this to be a masterpiece is that the emphatic and shrieking parts of the album become highly powerful (which is why a powerful volume is the first necessity). This will lead you to Miss Fortune where this concept is at it's most incredible and visceral and strange. Subsequent listens with this in mind should open up the album more and more.

#4: Velvet Underground - Velvet Underground and Nico. This was one of the first bands to truly do things their way. That's pretty admirable. But, I still feel it's overrated. I think there's some great moments on this album ("Sunday Morning", "I'm Waiting For the Man"), and some that are oddly moving and very unique ("Heroin"), but a lot of obnoxious noise too, and I don't care what anyone says, I really don't think Nico can sing.

If you think noise is "obnoxious" instead of forceful and powerful than you're in for a rough haul with the majority of his list. There's nothing wrong with thinking that other than you will lose out on a good percentage of what makes many of these albums so overwhelming and powerful.

#5: The Doors - The Doors. I've probably heard most of it. It's an interesting choice - a more or less straight forward album among the experimental, the avant-garde, and the truly bizarre.

About half of the album features normal structures but everything else about the album is highly creative and original, especially all of Morrison's vocal performance--one of the most jaw-dropping vocal performances of all time--performance being the key word. He was the first true "dramatic performer" in rock vocalist history. Before him there was hardly anything close to a "lead" singer. A band was a band and each part was roughly equal in its contribution to the overall musical expression.

That's all for now. I may have more to say later. Again, interesting list and thanks for posting.

as Afterhours stated above, there are 41 (42 if you count Gong's Flying Teapot), not 25: the rest of the 9/10's.

Good to see that you've started adding the other portion of his list (which are placed there in order even though they're not numbered past 25).

RE: "Doesn't seem avant garde enough to make Scaruffi's list."

This is the most common misconception. He doesn't place albums there because they're avant-garde. He places them because they're ingenius/have lots of depth/emotionally significant, etc. There are tons of avant-garde albums he doesn't rate very high. A list titled "the most experimental albums of all times" would certainly be different than his "greatest albums of all times", though certain ones would still stick, such as TMR, Twin Infinitives and Faust. But others, like Zen Arcade, Safe as Milk, Repeater, Double Nickels, Astral Weeks, The River, Geek the Girl, Good, The Good Son, Fare Forward Voyagers, The Doors, etc, probably would not make such a list if it were merely on that basis.

"See, this is the kind of thing that really makes me scratch my head. "Emotional". Such a vague, totally subjective way to assess musical value. Emotional? Try Plastic Ono Band by John Lennon. Given a paltry 6.5 by Senor Scaruffi, this would have to be seen as the ultimate hypocrisy. Most of Plastic Ono Band is stark, personal and highly emotionally charged, as well as thoughtful and poetic. Far removed from Beatles (McCartney) pop, this album should appeal to a more emotionally curious audience. In point of fact the album itself is a mixture of "affection, happiness, grief, sorrow, mystery, dream, nightmare, clarity and insanity" with a dollop of primal anger and lonliness thrown in for good measure."

Yes, Plastic Ono Band is emotional; but it is whiny to say the least. It is easy for someone to fake sadness and anger (which Scaruffi can see past), but madness is an entirely different key (which Scaruffi fully embraces). Lennon certainly made an emotional album, but it was not interesting. Stark raving mad musicians are by far on a different level than sad artists. It is only a matter of opinion of which case you accept. I, for one, love the insanity.

#12: Red Krayola - Parable Of Arable Land. Seems like something I'd like. Who are these guys again?

here's a nice review of this album

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/11813-the-parable-of-arable-land-god...